Is it a pyramid or is it a mountain/hill?

[alen1]

There has been a lot of talk lately about the pyramid dug up in my home country of Bosnia. A bosnian explorer named Semir Osmanagic believes he has dug up Europe's first pyramids. He says that they are over 12,000 years old. Critics say that it is not a pyramid because the found walls and balconies are not a signs of a pyramid.

Here is a link to the questioning of the pyramid: http://www.bosnian-pyramid.net/Is-there-a-pyramid?/Contra-%28Minus%29/British-archaeologist-says-no-evidence-of-pyramid-under-hill-in-Bosnia/

Those critics believe that there isn't a pyramid but there was a thermal satellite analysis done and it indicated a bosnian pyramid.

http://www.bosnian-pyramid.net/images/stories//news/Bosnian-Pyramid-thermal-analasys.jpg

Here is a link to Osmanagic's quotes regarding his discovery: http://www.bosnian-pyramid.com/pyramid1.php

Now I ask you, what do you believe of this?

This is the latest photo of the discovery : http://photos.igougo.com/images/p297683-Bosnia_and_Herzegovina-Bosnian_pyramid.jpg

[cnc66]

looks like a dang pyramid to me

[alen1]

looks like a dang pyramid to me

That's what I am thinking, I discussed it with my dad and he said the same. I don't understand what the critics are seeing. They are superior in knowledge to me of course but if it looks like a pyramid, I would have to say theres a good chance it is one.

[alen1]

His team, made up mostly of volunteers, found that the 2,120-foot (650-meter) hill has 45-degree slopes pointing toward the cardinal points and a flat top. Under layers of dirt, workers discovered a paved entrance plateau, entrances to tunnels and large stone blocks.

Egyptian geologist Aly Abd Alla Barakat, who arrived in May to check on Osmanagic's claims said the structure is "man made" and worth investigating. "My opinion is that this is a type of pyramid, probably a primitive pyramid," said Barakat, a geologist from the Egyptian Mineral Resource Authority.

However, Harding, who said he visited the site briefly on Thursday and looked at the same stone blocks Barakat said were man made, said on Friday they were a natural formation.

"I've seen the site, in my opinion it is entirely natural," he told reporters in Sarajevo. Harding did not visit other sites in the area which Osmanagic and Barakat say are further evidence of the existence of pyramids in Bosnia, such as a tunnel leading to the top of Visocica or a stone pavement made of geometrically regular shaped pieces.

The Egyptian geologist stated that it was man-made but a British archaeologist stated that it was " a natural strange formation".

The pyramid theory was launched by an amateur researcher last year but it has been disputed by a number of local and international experts, who claim that at no time in Bosnia's history did the region have a civilization able to build monumental structures. They say the hill is simply a strange natural formation.

Is it even possible to have something like this form naturally?

[cnc66]

The Egyptian geologist stated that it was man-made but a British archaeologist stated that it was " a natural strange formation".



Is it even possible to have something like this form naturally?

They could have used an existing feature and excavated a structure. Kind of resembled an Aztec/Inca stepped pyramid to me.. the early Egyptian efforts were step pyramids too.

[alen1]

They could have used an existing feature and excavated a structure. Kind of resembled an Aztec/Inca stepped pyramid to me.. the early Egyptian efforts were step pyramids too.

True. Would it still be considered an original man-made pyramid or would it change its outlook because they built up the structure on top of land that was already formed? Also, would it still be considered a pyramid overall ? It seems like this discovery will need some more time to develop new theories and information because it seems to early to conclude anything.

[Regan21286]

It's alien. :whistling:

[cnc66]

It's alien. :whistling:

no, he's alen

[gafinfan]

looks like a dang pyramid to me

Reminds me of something we were told before the ship left for the SCS. Anything you see out there that looks like a straight line is man made. Those sure look like straight lines to me.

[opfinistic]

Heh, if it was built from the ground up it's a pyramid.

[cnc66]

Heh, if it was built from the ground up it's a pyramid.

so in your mind, from the ground down won't qualify?

[CrunchTime]

Pyramids are found in many ancient cultures because they are the simplest and most logical way to build a high man made structure.We are talling about people who only had basic natural materials to work with .They did not have the benefit of steel reinforcement so they could not build skyscraper type of structures to achieve heigth

They were usually built to glorify the gods or house the priests or nobility or those of high stature in their respective societies.

The theory was that the higher you built a structure the closer you would be to the gods . Consequently the higher you lived in a structure the more important you would be in that society.

In addition a high structure provides a better defense against enemies.

Having said that I think that this particular pyramid is natural .If there was an advanced culture in that region there would be more pyramids and more evidence of its existence .

Its not unusual to have straight lines and geometric shapes found in nature .

[Regan21286]

no, he's alen

Maybe both? :wink2:

[pocoloco]

the 'Bosnian Pyramid of the Sun' foundation, whatever that is, said the geologist said that. As far as I can tell, there is no direct quote from any geologist save..

According to one source, on May 8, 2006, members of the Geological team investigating Visočica on behalf of the Archaeological Park: Bosnian Pyramid of the Sun Foundation held a press conference in Tuzla to present the results of their research. The academics, from the Faculty of Mining and Geology[17] at the University of Tuzla[18] and led by Professor Dr. Sejfudin Vrabac,[19] concluded that the hill is a natural geological formation, made of classic sediments of layered composition and varying thickness, and that its shape is a consequence of endodynamical and exodynamical processes in post-Miocene era.

According to Professor Vrabac, who specializes in paleogeology, there are dozens of like morphological formations in the Sarajevo-Zenica mining basin alone. The Geological team report on Visocica, based on the data collected in six drill holes at 3 to 17 metre depths, is supported by the Research and Teaching Council of the Faculty of Mining and Geology, as well as the Association of Geologists of Federation of Bosnia and Herzegovina.[20]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bosnian_pyramids

There are no absolute dates at all, let alone any that would pin it between 12,000 and 500 BC. If I had to guess, I would say there's a later site on the top and sides. It's not uncommon for big hilltops to see fortifications during time of large-scale warfare, complete with wall, terraces, wells etc.

This guy is tunneling through the stuff, potentially wrecking Bosnian heritage, try desperately to find something that would suggest an Atlantis connection.

[pocoloco]

If this is 'definitely' a pyramid, then Vermont and New Hampshire were the centers of the universe

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/a7/Bosnian_Pyramid.jpg/800px-Bosnian_Pyramid.jpg

[Dol-Fan Dupree]

Pyramids are found in many ancient cultures because they are the simplest and most logical way to build a high man made structure.We are talling about people who only had basic natural materials to work with .They did not have the benefit of steel reinforcement so they could not build skyscraper type of structures to achieve heigth

They were usually built to glorify the gods or house the priests or nobility or those of high stature in their respective societies.

The theory was that the higher you built a structure the closer you would be to the gods . Consequently the higher you lived in a structure the more important you would be in that society.

In addition a high structure provides a better defense against enemies.

Having said that I think that this particular pyramid is natural .If there was an advanced culture in that region there would be more pyramids and more evidence of its existence .

Its not unusual to have straight lines and geometric shapes found in nature .

I am not a history major or anything, however I do remember from my history class that there are a few advanced cultures that would not have any evidence if it wasn't for the fact that the Egyptians kept really good records.

[CrunchTime]

I am not a history major or anything, however I do remember from my history class that there are a few advanced cultures that would not have any evidence if it wasn't for the fact that the Egyptians kept really good records.

There is no evidence that the ability to build pyramids was something one culture borrowed from another .

That was Erick Von Daniken theory in his book The Chariots of the Gods.He theorized that the Mayan pyramids were somehow related to the egyptian pyramids and that both cultures were taught how to make pyramids by extraterrestial beings :shifty:.

Pyramids were common to American indians in the mississippi basin,to the Mayans in Central America and the Incas in South America.The pyramids were used for completely different purposes.No relation.

There were pyramids in Mesopotania ,southeast asia again used for different purposes .

The conclusion many experts have made is that if an ancient culture wanted to build a high structure for any reason it would have to be a pyramid .:yes:

[alen1]

If this is 'definitely' a pyramid, then Vermont and New Hampshire were the centers of the universe

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/a7/Bosnian_Pyramid.jpg/800px-Bosnian_Pyramid.jpg

That was prior to it being uncovered from my understanding.

[alen1]

the 'Bosnian Pyramid of the Sun' foundation, whatever that is, said the geologist said that. As far as I can tell, there is no direct quote from any geologist save..



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bosnian_pyramids

There are no absolute dates at all, let alone any that would pin it between 12,000 and 500 BC. If I had to guess, I would say there's a later site on the top and sides. It's not uncommon for big hilltops to see fortifications during time of large-scale warfare, complete with wall, terraces, wells etc.

This guy is tunneling through the stuff, potentially wrecking Bosnian heritage, try desperately to find something that would suggest an Atlantis connection.

I don't understand, than how did they come up with it being over 12,000 years old?

http://www.bosnian-pyramid.com/pyramid1.php

[pocoloco]

I don't understand, than how did they come up with it being over 12,000 years old?

http://www.bosnian-pyramid.com/pyramid1.php

No idea, at least according to Wiki he claimed to have been misquoted, actually saying construction began sometime between 12,000 and 500 BC. There's no evidence to support that claim that I've found, so I suppose it is his hunch

The problem I have with the 'excavations' is not that they're done by an amateur. Bosnia, after all, has no formal archaeology office or programs. The issue is that he already has his mind made up, and if he finds some late period artifacts, chances are they'll get swept under the rug. The man, after all, has sunk 20 grand of his own money into this thing.

The very worst archaeology projects are ones where the researchers' minds are already made up. He's decided this is a pyramid, perhaps the oldest in the world, and he's out to prove it by selectively inviting geologists and lifting quotes from them. The man's excavation notes are a nightmare. He's after architecture, not artifacts, meaning that a whole class of data (if it even exists) is getting thrown over his shoulder

This is good for some tourism, but on the whole, really really bad for understanding Bosnian prehistory or history. Epically bad if it is a pyramid

[CrunchTime]

I don't understand, than how did they come up with it being over 12,000 years old?

http://www.bosnian-pyramid.com/pyramid1.php

Carbon dating probably from old vegetation or rubble from previous human habitation

[alen1]

Carbon dating probably from old vegetation or rubble from previous human habitation

Ooo, makes sense.

[alen1]

No idea, at least according to Wiki he claimed to have been misquoted, actually saying construction began sometime between 12,000 and 500 BC. There's no evidence to support that claim that I've found, so I suppose it is his hunch

The problem I have with the 'excavations' is not that they're done by an amateur. Bosnia, after all, has no formal archaeology office or programs. The issue is that he already has his mind made up, and if he finds some late period artifacts, chances are they'll get swept under the rug. The man, after all, has sunk 20 grand of his own money into this thing.

The very worst archaeology projects are ones where the researchers' minds are already made up. He's decided this is a pyramid, perhaps the oldest in the world, and he's out to prove it by selectively inviting geologists and lifting quotes from them. The man's excavation notes are a nightmare. He's after architecture, not artifacts, meaning that a whole class of data (if it even exists) is getting thrown over his shoulder

This is good for some tourism, but on the whole, really really bad for understanding Bosnian prehistory or history. Epically bad if it is a pyramid

Damn, and I got all happy lol.

[pocoloco]

if you want to compare this to a bona-fide case of someone finding a gigantic and early pyramid, google El Mirador in lowland Guatemala. It was probably a preClassic Maya 'city' with a pyramid rivaling any of the Old World ones (though pyramids in the Americas came in all shapes and sizes and generally functioned much much differently).

[pocoloco]

they haven't got anything to carbon date. For those who don't know how it works, you can only carbon date stuff that was once alive, and then only if there is enough carbon (though you don't need much) and if it hasn't been contaminated

an interview with Vesna Peric Zimonjic, appearing in the Belgian newspaper De Morgen, he refused to date the structures:

"We have not yet found organic remains, bones, wood or coal. Such analysis will help us to date the structures."

Nevertheless, on the Bosnian pyramid website, he is quoted as saying:[7]

"The following year, 2007, will be marked by the astonishment of the world public how such colossal monuments could have been made before the end of the last Ice age."

and also

"Regarding the age, there is more and more evidence that the main pyramid complex were built right before the end of the last Ice age, indicating that there was world wide plan for building these monuments."

also from Wiki

[alen1]

Wiki is not that reliable though but it all does make sense.

If they haven't found anything then how the hell are they getting these dates? Seems all made up from one big ass hill if you ask me.

[alen1]

I found this, pretty lengthy.

The Formula to understand the Bosnian Pyramids!

When I have announced for the first time my idea about the existence of the first European pyramids it sounded unbelieveable. Different expected reactions have been raised from scientific ambiences. Some parties of the scientific community, open minded to accept new ideas, make no hasty or premature judgements. Others, like those who aren't inclined to changes, convinced about their conservative views, promptly attacked the hypothesis and tried to debunk it's author. Some of them, showed a typical bosnian propensity, by launching libel and insults from behind the scenes.

The author, famous for his claim that he will "burn" himself, because Bosnia and Herzegowina has the most significative archaeological memorial on the planet, wanted that, if possible, this memorial should never been unearthed. Because, advantaged by his position in the 'Commission to Preserve National Monuments', he had carried up to enlarge the protection area of miserable 20x60 meters, what once was the medieval town of Visoki, to an area more than half of the pyramid, what is more than three times of UNESCO's protection area of the center in Mostar (!), only with the aim to stop the research of the Bosnian pyramids.

It is useful to remind everybody, that the meeting of the Commission was held in May 2006 and the validity of the fixed norm was declared as retroactivly to March 2006. Why? Because, the Foundation started the excavations in April 2006. And look what for ironic circumstances, sixteen of the excavated probe-holes were suddenly located on the new enlarged protection area, in other words, all what have been excavated till then, including the stone blocks and walls of the 'Pyramid of the Sun'.
However, the Foundation continued with further excavations. This time on landplots of privat property located at the 'Bosnian Pyramid of the Moon' and inside the complex of underground tunnels. At that point, the Federal Minister of Culture entered the scene by asking to the Government of the ZEDO-canton to promptly stop the research.

So, after having failed the aim once again, another method was applied which consisted of lobbying the small archaeo-historical community of Bosnia and Herzegowina. Twentyone experts from different towns are signing the petition to stop the excavations at the 'Pyramid of the Sun' providing the 'alibi' that the medieval town of Visoki is in danger because of the ongoing excavations. But, those people were ignoring just 'one little point': The real reason of it's vanishing was caused by the carelessness of those who signed the petition.

The team of experts, which was formed by the Federal Ministry of Culture, accused in June 2006 for such shameful state the 'longtime carelessness of the competent and responsible institutions, even if those, had and still have particular decisional power to provide for the protection and maintenance of the whole cultural heritage, without undertaking adequate measures.'

After another unsuccessful attempt to stop the excavations, the following step consisted in exerting sustained pressure on the Foundation by moving the controversy on the international scene. The national archaeologists are doing a pact with the Europeans in order to promote another petition, having the same content, saying that somewhere in the Bosnian mountains a medieval town, an archaeological treasure, is getting destroyed. The petition is signed by experts, solidary with their colleagues from Sarajevo, but being clueless about the real situation and state of Bosnian Cultural Heritage.

The best part of this Recital was Mr. Harding's fifteen-minutes-visit to the Visoko valley, where he neglected, as President of the European Association of Archaeologists, with his continuous diminishing statements that there's nothing.

From the other side, the Egyptian experts, Prof. Mohamed Ibrahim Aly, Dr. Aly Barakat and the egyptologist Lamiya El-Hadidi, after having studied carefully the whole location, declared that the findings are of very important archaeological importance. On the opposing side stands Mr. Harding, who leads the cabinet-experts who never visited the place of research and, with the advantage of their titles and positions they occupy, are declaring the opposite. Whom to believe?

We were very happy, when during spring 2006 the experts from the Faculty of Tuzla announced their participation at the project. And we were very embittered when they have visited the location before the excavations started, and refused to come once the first stone blocks have been uncovered. The bitter taste of their hasty report stating that all that is a geological 'natural' phenomena was contradicted by the active appearance of another institution from Tuzla, The Faculty of Construction (GIT), which presented the analysis of the stone blocks, coming to the cocnlusion that what they have examined is: 'Concrete Construction Material of Particular Quality'.

When President Tihic called UNESCO's experts to come in order to express their judgement about the existence of pyramids, tens of archaeo-politics from London and Boston, Zagreb and Sarajevo urgently requested to the UNESCO's Director-General Koïchiro Matsuura to stop the arrival of their experts.

They are affraid about what? Are they affraid about the material evidence that will make collapse their world views?

The Federal Government approved 50.000 KM for the research in year 2006, after the President and Ministers personally verified the fact that beneath the layers of dirt of the hills Visocica and Pljesevica are hidden huge stone constructions, made by humans, having the geometrical shape of pyramids. The example of Bosnian unicity emerged once again when the Federal Minister of Culture transferred the resources to the Cantonal Tourist Community, addressing them to another purpose, even in front of complaints by the local community. Later, in order to show his solidarity with his own group, the Minister asks to the Foundation to invite him officially to visit the location. After having received the invitation, he refused publically to come, and submitted a copy of his letter, to him favourable newspaper "Dani", for pubblication.

Only few times, and after sporadic tries, our discoveries have been opposed by different opinions as used in normal disputations. As for example, the theory of Prof. Imamovic and Stjepan Coric from Vienna, whom declared that the complex of underground tunnels which are connected to the pyarmids are mines dating from medieval times. I have to admit that such lovely statements can be easily contradicted. Experts from three mines, Zenica, Kakanj and Banovici, have laught about this hypothesis and declared that those aren't mines. Geologists and geophysicists from Bosnia and foreign countries confirmed that those tunnels are thousands of years old and of artificial origin.

The group of anti-pyramid opposers like Blagoje Govedarica, Zilka Kujundzic, Svetozar Pudaric, Mirko Babic, Gavrilo Grahovac, Ivan and Dubravko Lovrenovic, are working hard to debunk the pyramid research project, spreading voices that the project is supported only by 'Bosnian ambiences'. They are trying to destroy the project by transforming it in a sad story in three pieces about the Bosnian national and religious reality. Those persons intentionally ignore the fact that the Foundation always underlined that this project has nothing to do with single nations, religious beliefs, but that it belongs to an ancient past about which all should be proud off. Thus, becoming an integrative factor that should unite, not divide.

During the project presentation held in Switzerland in December 2006, in front of 1200 Bosnians, for the first time we've communicated how to read the volumetric formula of the 'Bosnian Pyramid of the Sun':

V = B x H / 3 Volume is equal to basement multiplied by three times the height divided three

We could explain it as:

V = B x H / 3 Visoko (V) is equal to Bosnia (B) and Herzegowina (H) with three folks


Also this year's end, is characterized by a holding up under pressure our research. The European Association, leaded by Mr.Harding, is attacking the Bosnian Government for its support to the project by allocating financial resources. Underlining the fact that the Governments Participation is only 10 percent, I tought it was just another joke of Mr. Harding. Only later, I've discovered that he proposed to allocate the Federal Budget of 300.000 KM to some sections of the 'Pyramid of the Sun' during 2007. It is evident that Prof. Harding is well informed about the future planned actions in B&H.

My proposal for the Bosnian archaeologists, the opposers of the project is the following:

if the Federal Parliament decides to dedicate 300.000 KM to the project, my wish is, that the entire amount will be given to the opposers leaded by Mrs. Zilka Kujundzic and Enver Imamovic, while the Foundation will continue to be financed exclusively through privat donations, by companies from B&H and or foreign countries or by sponsors. We also invite them to join the Foundation works in order to uncover the 'Bosnian Pyramid of the Sun'. Let's collaborate and connect the 'Foundation ABPS' with the 'Federal Commission to Preserve National Monuments', 'The National Museum of Bosnia and Herzegowina' in Sarajevo, 'The Homeland Museum' in Visoko, archaeologists and historians from the 'Faculty of Philospohy' in Sarajevo in order to work all together on the project. Let's spend part of that money for the reconstruction and protection of the old town Visoki, the Roman castle and Illyrian village beneath it, the area of the pyramid hill-top where all three archaeo-cultural remains are located. Of course, there's also located one of the pyramid entrances, where we will enter together.


Dear Professors, Museum Councillors, Members of Federal Committees and Journalists,

the pyramids will survive all of us. In One Hundred Years, nobody will remember our names. But, those collossal stone structures, located in the small, but proud country called Bosnia, will radiate a positive energy out into the world. Please, let me invite you once again to unite the modest Bosnian potentials, to combine our one's with those of our colleagues from Egypt, Malesia, Jordan, Croatia, Germany, Serbia and other countries into this research effort.

In five years, one million of tourists will visit the Bosnian Valley of Pyramids. Our wish is that Bosnia and Herzegowina becomes a lively place where explorers, students, professors, volunteers of lightened faces exchange their international scientific knowledge. Tourism will develop the market , the economy will raise and infrastructures will be build.

This is our chance.

Semir Osmanagic

http://www.bosnian-pyramid.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=822

If you go to the link, theres more information on the bottom. There is detailed pictures of the area surrounding the pyramid.

[alen1]

This stood out from the information I posted above.

During the project presentation held in Switzerland in December 2006, in front of 1200 Bosnians, for the first time we've communicated how to read the volumetric formula of the 'Bosnian Pyramid of the Sun':

V = B x H / 3 Volume is equal to basement multiplied by three times the height divided three

We could explain it as:

V = B x H / 3 Visoko (V) is equal to Bosnia (B) and Herzegowina (H) with three folks


Also this year's end, is characterized by a holding up under pressure our research. The European Association, leaded by Mr.Harding, is attacking the Bosnian Government for its support to the project by allocating financial resources. Underlining the fact that the Governments Participation is only 10 percent, I tought it was just another joke of Mr. Harding. Only later, I've discovered that he proposed to allocate the Federal Budget of 300.000 KM to some sections of the 'Pyramid of the Sun' during 2007. It is evident that Prof. Harding is well informed about the future planned actions in B&H.

[ToMaHaWk]

I'm kind of confused about the picture you provided alen. The pictures I see are just of, what appears to me, as a pyramidal-shaped hill, while the one you had in your first post actually seems to be a structure of some sort (which to me does have signs of being an actual pyramids).

Because this picture (which is just a smaller/different angled viersion of the one on the Bosnian Pyramid website)...

http://www.bosnian-pyramid.com/gallery/Pyramid/646740sun.JPG

...differs greatly from the picture in your first post.

I have to agree that the picture you provided does look a bit like the Mayan/Aztec/Incan style but I have a question...are those actually pyramids that they built? I mean I only know specifically about the Ancient Egyptian pyramids, but I'm sure you can get really technical and specific with the classifications. For example, would you consider the Ancient Sumerian ziggurats (which were religious temples, similar in some ways to Ancient Egyptian pyramids) a pyramid?

Sorry about going on my philosophical/speculative tangent of actually coming up with a definition of a pyramid. I find it's actually really helpful...or entertaining to say the least.

[alen1]

I'm kind of confused about the picture you provided alen. The pictures I see are just of, what appears to me, as a pyramidal-shaped hill, while the one you had in your first post actually seems to be a structure of some sort (which to me does have signs of being an actual pyramids).

Because this picture (which is just a smaller/different angled viersion of the one on the Bosnian Pyramid website)...

http://www.bosnian-pyramid.com/gallery/Pyramid/646740sun.JPG

...differs greatly from the picture in your first post.

I have to agree that the picture you provided does look a bit like the Mayan/Aztec/Incan style but I have a question...are those actually pyramids that they built? I mean I only know specifically about the Ancient Egyptian pyramids, but I'm sure you can get really technical and specific with the classifications. For example, would you consider the Ancient Sumerian ziggurats (which were religious temples, similar in some ways to Ancient Egyptian pyramids) a pyramid?

Sorry about going on my philosophical/speculative tangent of actually coming up with a definition of a pyramid. I find it's actually really helpful...or entertaining to say the least.

I know what your saying and I'm confused as well. I really don't know what to believe anymore considering the information that pocoloco provided was very insightful. The image you provided failed to show up for some reason but I did get a look at it because of the link. The image I found was the "pyramid" uncovered or "cleaned up". The one you provided I believe was a picture of the hill, mountain or whichever they wish to call it when it was first looked at as a possible ancient structure.

As for the pyramids being actually built, I don't believe we know that yet. It may have been built on top of a structure that was already there like cnc stated but it may have been formed from nature.

The ancient Sumerian ziggurats seem to look like pyramids to me. They also seem to be more advanced pyramids than others.

No problem with the lesson bro, I don't mind. I don't mind learning about history at all. If you were talking about Chemistry, that would be a completely different story lol.

[alen1]

Forgot to add something.

The pyramids are said to be built over 12,000 years ago according to Osmanagic, the man who discovered this structure. But we do not have any information from where he got that, seems like an educated guess by Osmanagic.

[pocoloco]

on the subject of pyramids, they really do differ quite greatly. Crunch, I think, is spot on to say they're a common solution to a common problem.
The Incas, as far as I know, never constructed pyramids of their own. They build impressive walls, roads and re-sculpted hills, but the South American versions belong largely to the Moche (in fact, these are the biggest in the Americas I think) and at least one example at the site of Tiwanaku, both previous to the Incas. The Incas co-opted large mounds at the oracle site of Pachacamac near Lima, Peru, but weren't responsible for the construction.

[alen1]

on the subject of pyramids, they really do differ quite greatly. Crunch, I think, is spot on to say they're a common solution to a common problem.
The Incas, as far as I know, never constructed pyramids of their own. They build impressive walls, roads and re-sculpted hills, but the South American versions belong largely to the Moche (in fact, these are the biggest in the Americas I think) and at least one example at the site of Tiwanaku, both previous to the Incas. The Incas co-opted large mounds at the oracle site of Pachacamac near Lima, Peru, but weren't responsible for the construction.

Yeah they do. I was looking at the Ancient Sumerian ziggurats that Tomahawk mentioned and they seemed to be more advanced or larger to say the least. The thing I noticed was that they had a long entrance to the pyramid. I am not sure why they have that long entrance because that would put them in greater harms way, wouldn't it?

[CrunchTime]

The Incas conquered another native tribe in the mountains of Peru who had a pyramid cult .All the major families had their own pyramids and they would live in them in platforms built on top of their pyramids.

It was only recently discovered.Until that time they thought the pyramids were natural because the area is surrounded by mountains.

When I get time I will try to find a reference to it.

[alen1]

The Incas conquered another native tribe in the mountains of Peru who had a pyramid cult .All the major families had their own pyramids and they would live in them in platforms built on top of their pyramids.

It was only recently discovered.Until that time they thought the pyramids were natural because the area is surrounded by mountains.

When I get time I will try to find a reference to it.

Do you think that could be the case with this or is this just a very steep hill/mountain?

[CrunchTime]

Actually there were several tribes in Peru that built pyramids including the Mochas
Inca pyramids in Peru (http://www.lost-civilizations.net/inca-pyramids-peru.html)

Mysterious Pyramid Complex Discovered in Peru (http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2008/02/080220-vicus-pyramids.html)

I cant remember the name of the tribe that had the pyramid cult

[CrunchTime]

Do you think that could be the case with this or is this just a very steep hill/mountain?

Its possible but improbable.Only an excavation would confirm that although I suppose a ground and density device could be used too

[alen1]

Its possible but improbable.Only an excavation would confirm that although I suppose a ground and density device could be used too

Interesting. Hopefully they get to the bottom of this sooner or later so we know something of this. Thanks for taking the time to answer my questions bro :up:.

Also, thanks for the links. I started reading and I noticed that Peru's pyramids have flat tops like Mexico's, also mentioned in the article. It seems like all or most Latin American pyramids were structured with flat tops. The interesting thing I find about the flat top pyramids is that despite it being a religious center, it is created to come closer to the god and for the tribes to feel like they have an advantage over other tribes by being "closer" to god, yet they have a flat top.

[pocoloco]

Actually there were several tribes in Peru that built pyramids including the Mochas
Inca pyramids in Peru (http://www.lost-civilizations.net/inca-pyramids-peru.html)

Mysterious Pyramid Complex Discovered in Peru (http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2008/02/080220-vicus-pyramids.html)

I cant remember the name of the tribe that had the pyramid cult

All those are earlier than the Inca, who didn't get rolling until after 1400 till the Spanish. A lot of the sites that reference cosmic energy, Atlantis and so forth typically confuse and blur together most prehistoric traditions in the Americas. For example, I googled Inca pyramid and got a picture of Chichen Itza (Mexico, 1200-1400 AD), Huaca del Sol (Peru 200-800 AD) and various Lima Peru ones, every single one built earlier. The Inca were largely highlanders and didn't deal well with the coastal folk, engaging in a very long and costly war with the Chimu just prior to Spanish arrival.

All the biggest pyramids are on the north coast of Peru, and like most other places in the world, some of the very biggest monuments are the earliest in the area's sequence. The Initial Period (1800-200 BC) monuments are some of the absolute largest in the world but aren't pyramids in the classic sense, they are U-shaped and aren't beside sizeable habitations. Caral is a version of this and a currently researched site to look up if you guys are interested. El Paraiso, I think, is the biggest. Cerro Sechin and Sechin Alto are the coolest.

[alen1]

All those are earlier than the Inca, who didn't get rolling until after 1400 till the Spanish. A lot of the sites that reference cosmic energy, Atlantis and so forth typically confuse and blur together most prehistoric traditions in the Americas. For example, I googled Inca pyramid and got a picture of Chichen Itza (Mexico, 1200-1400 AD), Huaca del Sol (Peru 200-800 AD) and various Lima Peru ones, every single one built earlier. The Inca were largely highlanders and didn't deal well with the coastal folk, engaging in a very long and costly war with the Chimu just prior to Spanish arrival.

All the biggest pyramids are on the north coast of Peru, and like most other places in the world, some of the very biggest monuments are the earliest in the area's sequence. The Initial Period (1200 BC) monuments are some of the absolute largest in the world but aren't pyramids in the classic sense, they are U-shaped and aren't beside sizeable habitations. Caral is a version of this and a currently researched site to look up if you guys are interested. El Paraiso, I think, is the biggest. Cerro Sechin and Sechin Alto are a bit later, but the coolest.

http://www.instatravel.org/images/caral-jpg_62.jpg???

[alen1]

http://www.metmuseum.org/toah/hd/cerr_1/cerr_dmap1.jpg

Pocoloco, this is what you were referring to when you stated that the biggest pyramids are on the coast of Peru, correct?

[pocoloco]

yep. Those ones you have on the map are Initial Period or Early Horizon, which is to say the earliest, 1800 BC to 200 AD give or take. But they're not really pyramids, but if you calculated the volume of those monsters, they would be bigger than most pyramids in the world. If you divided volume by available workforce per century, the amount of work per person would probably be the largest at any time in anyone's prehistory.

that same area, in different spots along the coast, saw what we could call pyramids later on. The best known are the Moche, but smaller pyramids are up and down the coast till about Lima (Sican, Vicus, Lurin, Pachacamac etc). That's where you want to go to see pyramids and big monuments, not Cuzco.

The most impressive thing are the ruins of Chan Chan near Trujillo, a big mud brick city that you can see from space. Not pyramids, but still, the Andes really are an incredible place.

[alen1]

yep. Those ones you have on the map are Initial Period or Early Horizon, which is to say the earliest, 1800 BC to 200 AD give or take. But they're not really pyramids, but if you calculated the volume of those monsters, they would be bigger than most pyramids in the world. If you divided volume by available workforce per century, the amount of work per person would probably be the largest at any time in anyone's prehistory.

that same area, in different spots along the coast, saw what we could call pyramids later on. The best known are the Moche, but smaller pyramids are up and down the coast till about Lima (Sican, Vicus, Lurin, Pachacamac etc). That's where you want to go to see pyramids and big monuments, not Cuzco.

The most impressive thing are the ruins of Chan Chan near Trujillo, a big mud brick city that you can see from space. Not pyramids, but still, the Andes really are an incredible place.

Sorry if I keep asking so many questions, not intended to annoy you or anyone else. If I am, please tell me.

If they're not really pyramids then I suspect they were religious centers like the articles stated that CT posted. They probably did their religious rituals in that center.

I looked up the Chan Chan near Trujillo that you mentioned and they do seem to be very large but see it from space? It states that it is endangered because of the floods that occurred due to heavy rain.

[Finascious D]

http://photos.igougo.com/images/p297683-Bosnia_and_Herzegovina-Bosnian_pyramid.jpg

I hate to say it, but this photo looks doctored to me. Is it an artist representation over the natural area?

It is all one color, very little shadowing. The grass looks like it cuts off a huge rock on the right. Plus the grass immediately around the structure looks different than the grass in the rest of the photo. I think that maybe, their showing you what the "pyramid" would look like under the build up. Or maybe not. It just looks "CG plasticy" to me.

[alen1]

I hate to say it, but this photo looks doctored to me. Is it an artist representation over the natural area?

It is all one color, very little shadowing. The grass looks like it cuts off a huge rock on the right. Plus the grass immediately around the structure looks different than the grass in the rest of the photo. I think that maybe, their showing you what the "pyramid" would look like under the build up. Or maybe not. It just looks "CG plasticy" to me.

You may be right bro, I am not sure. I just found it and posted it as the link stated it was a recent photo.

I'll know for sure next summer, I'll be going to Bosnia. Once I see it for myself, I will take pictures and make sure I get a good look at their historical reference they have posted at the site. Once I come back, I will upload the photos and post it for you guys.

[Finascious D]

You may be right bro, I am not sure. I just found it and posted it as the link stated it was a recent photo.

I'll know for sure next summer, I'll be going to Bosnia. Once I see it for myself, I will take pictures and make sure I get a good look at their historical reference they have posted at the site. Once I come back, I will upload the photos and post it for you guys.

Good luck!!

[alen1]

Good luck!!

Thanks bro! It will be very exciting going back home for the first time in two or three years.

[ToMaHaWk]

You may be right bro, I am not sure. I just found it and posted it as the link stated it was a recent photo.

I'll know for sure next summer, I'll be going to Bosnia. Once I see it for myself, I will take pictures and make sure I get a good look at their historical reference they have posted at the site. Once I come back, I will upload the photos and post it for you guys.

That's a great way to quell the uncertainty in this discussion! :up: First-hand accounts always speak more for me than anything else, even if it was a professional's opinion on the matter.

[opfinistic]

so in your mind, from the ground down won't qualify?

That would make it a hole, Marty. Sheesh.

[pocoloco]

Sorry if I keep asking so many questions, not intended to annoy you or anyone else. If I am, please tell me.

If they're not really pyramids then I suspect they were religious centers like the articles stated that CT posted. They probably did their religious rituals in that center.

I looked up the Chan Chan near Trujillo that you mentioned and they do seem to be very large but see it from space? It states that it is endangered because of the floods that occurred due to heavy rain.

no problems, I used to work in Peru so I don't mind. No one really knows too much about those early centers, but some sort of religious function seems probable. You'd think more people would gravitate toward working on it, but the later Moche get the most attention. They are built in a few hundred years, abandoned, and a new one started in a neighboring valley. That happens again and again, almost like if people felt the act of getting together and constructing (rather than using the finished product) was the most important thing.

El Ninos kill coastal Peru. It's all desert, gets very little moisture (just from sea fogs). El Ninos happen every 10 years, dumping some rain. Every now and then in prehistory, big ones would heavily erode the desert and silt over agricultural fields. When it go dry, that silt and sand would get kicked up by the wind and create huge sand dunes that covered over big centers in neighboring valleys. El Nino related problems are what's happening to Chan Chan, plus it's filled with squatters and you will get robbed or stabbed if you go wandering alone. Lots of people were into it in the early 80s, today only a handful. The big palaces (ciudadeles) have all been looted, but there's a lot of opportunity there for a young (and well-armed) archaeologist to study the lower class folks.

[alen1]

no problems, I used to work in Peru so I don't mind. No one really knows too much about those early centers, but some sort of religious function seems probable. You'd think more people would gravitate toward working on it, but the later Moche get the most attention. They are built in a few hundred years, abandoned, and a new one started in a neighboring valley. That happens again and again, almost like if people felt the act of constructing (rather than using the finished product) was the most important thing.

El Ninos kill coastal Peru. It's all desert, gets very little moisture (just from sea fogs). El Ninos happen every 10 years, dumping some rain. Every now and then in prehistory, big ones would heavily erode the desert and silt over agricultural fields. When it go dry, that silt and sand would get kicked up by the wind and create huge sand dunes that covered over big centers in neighboring valleys. El Nino related problems are what's happening to Chan Chan, plus it's filled with squatters and you will get robbed if you go wandering alone.

Ooo. Thats terrible to see :pity:. I'm assuming there is no way to protect the Chan Chan's from the El Ninos.

[pocoloco]

Ooo. Thats terrible to see :pity:. I'm assuming there is no way to protect the Chan Chan's from the El Ninos.

Nope. The mud-brick walls just slump into piles archaeologists call adobe melt. If oceans continue to warm and El Ninos increase in intensity and frequency, the ancient city will end up looking like a clay tennis court in another 50 years

[alen1]

Nope. The mud-brick walls just slump into piles archaeologists call adobe melt. If oceans continue to warm and El Ninos increase in intensity and frequency, the ancient city will end up looking like a clay tennis court in another 50 years

Damn, thats sad to hear.

[Miamian]

Jumping in here late. Poco, obviously, this is your area of expertise. Do you think that it's possible that thousands of years of weathering and natural growth would obfuscate an actual pyramid. I remember that the pyramid at Cobha in Yucatan looks a lot like just a tall hill, but it's an actual pyramid.

[pocoloco]

Jumping in here late. Poco, obviously, this is your area of expertise. Do you think that it's possible that thousands of years of weathering and natural growth would obfuscate an actual pyramid. I remember that the pyramid at Cobha in Yucatan looks a lot like just a tall hill, but it's an actual pyramid.

It sure would. But in most part of the Yucatan it's pretty flat, so anything that stands up is suspicious. Even little mounds where commoner houses once sat, only a few feet higher than the surroundings, are visible and of interest to archaeologists.

Normally the archaeologists see something on a satellite image or aerial photo and make a trip, only to find a looter trench. With a little clearing of that trench and the base, the pyramids are usually unmistakable, cut stone, rubble fill, inscriptions, stucco masks and so on. The only thing archaeologists could never see on the ground, but in thermal imagery, were vast networks of manmade raised fields, canals, and reservoirs that just look like swampy areas in the jungle.

[CrunchTime]

This is not what I was looking for but its interesting nontheless.It pre-dates Incas and is considered to be one of the mother cities which other cultures were derived from

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VfJntU5C4yg